Space & Astronomy/Space and Astronomy (October 1993).iso/mac/TEXT/SPACEDIG/V13_7/V13_776.TXT

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Subject: SPACE Digest V13 #776

SPACE Digest                                     Volume 13 : Issue 776

Today's Topics:
      Re: Excavating (minig) gold in the space by NASA.
             Re: Access to Space
             Re: Hermes (was Re: (none))
                Re: Amputation
 Re: United Space Federation IEC/BOD/Members & Supporters E-Mail List
              Soviet Space trip
               Re: Launch failure today
             Re: Access to Space
            SPACE Digest V13 #644
             Re: Mining El Dorado
             Re: Mining El Dorado

Administrivia:

    Submissions to the SPACE Digest/sci.space should be mailed to
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----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 20 Jun 91 21:54:50 GMT
From: tristan![e-mail]  (Loren Petrich)
Subject: Re: Excavating (minig) gold in the space by NASA.

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Arto Wikla) writes:
>Remember what happened to the economy of Spain after
>they had found the gold of America!
>(There was a gold-inflation, which ruined the economy and finally
>was the end of super-power Spain.)

    I don't think that a superabundance of cheap gold would be an
economic disaster in today's world, however, though it would certainly
affect all those who have invested in gold. Has anyone estimated the
total value of all the gold that is in various people's hands, using
current gold prices? And I'm sure most governments by now have printed
much more money than they have by way of gold or other such reserves
(any estimates here also?).

    This hope of great wealth was what had motivated the
alchemists for centuries, despite failure after failure. About the
1600's (if I remember correctly), the early scientist Robert Boyle
petitioned the British Government to repeal a law against the
alchemical manufacture of gold, because it would cause needless
suspicion to be cast on research into new chemical processes. I think
that he had come to suspect that the alchemists' great goal was
impossible. The reason for this law was presumably that a
superabundance of cheap gold would destroy the value of Britain's gold
reserves (I'm not sure how far paper money had come along by then).

    I recall that there was an expedition by some German chemists
in the 1910's(?) to attempt to extract gold from seawater; though they
succeeded, they discovered that the process would cost more than the
gold they recovered. I have also tried to make estimates of the cost
of making gold by using nuclear reactions (one needs a certain input
of energy), and I come to the same conclusion.

    Though producing lots of cheap gold would not be an economic
disaster, those who have lots of investments in the form of gold might
get together and form a "gold lobby" and try to slow down the
distribution of such gold.


$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
Loren Petrich, the Master Blaster: [e-mail]

Since this nodename is not widely known, you may have to try:

[e-mail]

------------------------------

Date: 20 Jun 91 17:03:02 GMT
From: cis.ohio-state.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!caen!ox.com!fmsrl7![e-mail]  (Ron Carter)
Subject: Re: Access to Space

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Matthew DeLuca) writes:
>If you couldn't talk to Europe instantaneously, would the demand for
>computers in Europe be less?  No, there would just be two companies
>instead of one, or several companies.  All advanced communications allows
>Sequent to do is expand the scope of its operations.  It does not actually
>create wealth.

Considering that those several companies, separately, would probably
not have the capability of developing, manufacturing and delivering
the same quality of goods as a single large company, it is evident
that wealth is created (actually, the creation of wealth is enabled,
though the distinction is minor) by communications.

>Manufacturing indeed creates wealth, as it adds value to something.  What
>does a comsat add value to?

The comsat adds value to goods and services.  Services, by making their
creation and delivery cheaper, and goods, by making them more effective.
A CNC lathe is a good, but without services such as programming, it is
useless and therefore worthless.

Would your computer be worth anything without the services which went
into programming it?  Would it be of any informative value to you
without the communications services it uses?

------------------------------

Date: 20 Jun 91 22:00:14 GMT
From: prism![e-mail]  (Matthew DeLuca)
Subject: Re: Hermes (was Re: (none))

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Les Carleton) writes:

>>...manned (is there a non-sexist version of this?)

>Yes, "astronaut" or "cosmonaut".  Unfortuneately, the pro-astronaut
>crowd has decided that the language should be "manned" vs. "unmanned",
>turning an economic and technical issue into a Luddite debate of human vs.
>machine.  When I point out that "manned" is not only sexist but innaccurate,
>since there are many fine men and women building and using automated
>spacecraft, I am accused of "perverting the English language".

In the context of the article by the initial poster, 'crewed' is the
non-sexist (if you insist on calling 'manned' sexist) term of choice.

How does calling the shuttle a 'manned spacecraft' become inaccurate
as a result of people building and using unmanned spacecraft?  I have
this funny feeling there's going to be some more abuse of the English
language...

Nick, your abuse of the language for your personal ends is well known.
'Manned sample-return mission' for rockhunting in Antarctica, 'teleoperated
robot' for Voyager, and probably now something involving people on the
ground being part of manned spacecraft.  You are fairly accused.
--
Matthew DeLuca
Georgia Institute of Technology      "I'd hire the Dorsai, if I knew their
Office of Information Technology      P.O. box."  - Zebadiah Carter,
Internet: [e-mail]    _The Number of the Beast_

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Jun 91 07:43:18 PDT
From: [e-mail] (Jim Bowery)
To: crash![e-mail]
Subject: Re: Amputation

Allen Sherzer writes:
>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Jim Bowery)
writes:
>>Having heard Rep. Green speak on this issue, he will fight like hell
>>to protect space science.
>
>A Congresscritter will always say what you want to hear.

He said this on a NPR call-in show where he was the only member of
a panel that was packed with JSC supporters.  He was the only
person actively defending space science.  People who were
calling in were astro-groupies.

Sorry, Mr. Congresscritter Green was a little like Brady getting
up to speak at the national convention of the NRA -- he definitely
was NOT "playing to the crowd."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jim Bowery      619/295-3164               The Coalition for
PO Box 1981                                   Science and
La Jolla, CA 92038                             Commerce
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: 19 Jun 91 13:54:43 GMT
From: ssc-vax!bcsaic!hsvaic![e-mail]  (Dani Eder)
Subject: Re: United Space Federation IEC/BOD/Members & Supporters E-Mail List

[edited from a long posting:]
In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] writes:
>_____________________________________________________________________________
>   United Space Federation,Inc.  IEC/BOD/Members E-Mail Addresses
>
>From: Rick R. Dobson
>      Executive Director
>
>
>__________________________________________________________________________
>*******  United States of America United Space Federation Group **********
>__________________________________________________________________________
>
>
>Dani Eder     Member USF USA Group
>              Internet:  [e-mail]
>
>

To Mr. Dobson:
As they say here in the South: "Yoah in a big heap o' trouble boa"

I wrote you asking to be placed on your mailing list if it was to be
a 'discussion' type list.  I said if it was only to be used for
broadcast type messages, then not to bother.  I received several
back issues of information about what the USF was for.  I wrote
you a detailed message on why I thought the USF was a bad idea,
but as of today I have not received any response to my comments
nor any indication that my response was redistributed to anyone
else (can anyone else verify this?).  Now I find my name listed
as a member of your group, something which I do not want.  If it
hasn't occurred to you, I may want to correspond with you in
order to try to change your mind, or merely to keep an eye on you.

To the rest of the NET: I oppose the formation of a USF of the
type presentented by Mr. Dobson, for reasons which I will be
happy to discuss further with anyone who wants to.  To list me
as a 'member' is a misrepresentation of my position on this
subject since it implies support.

Dani Eder

------------------------------

Date: 20 Jun 91 11:51:48 GMT
From: njin!spcvxb.spc.edu![e-mail]
Subject: Soviet Space trip



I have just received special authority from senior Soviet space officials
to visit and tour certain space facilities in Moscow and Baikonur during the
last 10 days in July.  Additionally, I am authorized to bring a limited
number of guests as part of an American delegation.  The trip will include
Leningrad, Moscow, Star City, NPO Energia facilities, the Baikonur cosmodrome,
Flight Control Center in Kaliningrad, etc.  Additionally, the trip will include
discussions with Soviet officials regarding the business of placing experiments
aboard MIR.

This trip ain't cheap but I have been over before and it's the trip of a
lifetime for Soviet Space junkies.  If anyone is SERIOUSLY interested in
coming along, please call me immediately and I will discuss it further
with you.  I may be reached 24 hours a day (it will not disturb anyone if
you call in the middle of the night) at 718-979-5797.  However, I must
emphasize again that time is critical.

Best regards,
Ed O'Grady

------------------------------

Date: 20 Jun 91 21:37:48 GMT
From: agate!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!swrinde!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!freedom!xanth![e-mail]  (Martin Sulkanen - NRC/ES65)
Subject: Re: Launch failure today

[e-mail] writes:

>In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Christopher Neufeld) writes:

>>   Well, I just saw a throwaway bite on the evening news relating to the
>>destruction by range safety of an unmanned rocket. The footage had a
>>round decal with Orbital Sciences Corporation on it... "prospector".

>The Joust suborbital vehicle for microgravity experiments.  I believe
>NASA calls the series "Prospector" (I might easily have the names
>backwards).  OSC has had tons of problems with it.  Not good news.

does anybody know of these problems and why? the rocket is a modified
booster for delta launches...what mods were made? on a related issue,
what is the status of amroc and space services projects these days?

thanks,

|_________________________________________________________________|
| martin sulkanen      ][ internet: [e-mail]  |
| es 65                ][ span:     ssl::sulkanen                 |
| nasa/msfc            ][ voice:    205/544-5823                  |
| huntsville, al 35812 ][ institute for troutphysics              |
|_________________________________________________________________|

------------------------------

Date: 20 Jun 91 15:25:14 GMT
From: swrinde!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!samsung!emory!Dixie.Com!wa4mei!ke4zv![e-mail]  (Gary Coffman)
Subject: Re: Access to Space

In article <[e-mail]> [e-mail] (Matthew DeLuca) writes:
>
>Manufacturing indeed creates wealth, as it adds value to something.  What
>does a comsat add value to?  Airplanes don't create wealth, either, they
>just provide a service.

I'm sorry, but this is just wrong. Comsats add value to the RF spectrum
by acting as range extenders. They are as legitimate a wealth creating
industry as steel makers who take a raw resource and add value to it.

[Scazbo]
>>I find your arguments quite astounding.  Perhaps what you are really
>>trying to say is that, because the industry does not employ astronauts,
>>you don't care about it?
>
>Perhaps you have a hole in your head, too.
>
>Where did I say I do not care about the communications satellites?  I think
>they're a great idea.  I am taking issue with your statement that comsats
>are a self-sustaining industry, because they're only industry in the loosest
>sense of the word.  Asteroid mining (manned or unmanned) would create wealth.
>Space-based materials processing would create wealth.  Solar power satellites
>would create wealth.  Communications satellites don't create wealth.  Do you
>see what I am getting at?

I see what you are getting at, and your perception of wealth creation
is improperly limited to the procurement and manufacture of tangible
objects. In your view, software has no value, books have no value other
than the paper content, anything you can't touch or weigh isn't of
value, this is wrong. Wealth creation is the act of increasing the
usable value of some resource. That resource can be a new idea, something
in very short supply, or the electromagnetic spectrum, or metallic ore.

>You've gotten into a rut on your anti-astronaut crusade...it's starting to
>color your perceptions of other people's articles.

I do agree with this sentiment.

Gary

------------------------------

ReSent-Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
Resent-Date:  Fri, 21 Jun 91 17:29:03 EDT
Resent-From: Tom McWilliams <[e-mail]>
Resent-To: [e-mail]
Date:         Fri, 14 Jun 1991 05:43:26 TZONE
Reply-To: [e-mail]
From: [e-mail]
Subject:      SPACE Digest V13 #644
Comments: To: [e-mail]
To: david polito <[e-mail]>, Tom McWilliams <[e-mail]>


Re "Space Pollution"

>One messed-up spaceball (Earth) is enough. One cannot be sure there
>isn't life on that planet (in whatever form, with whatever inteligence),
>and I don't think we humans should start out interstellar life as
>"planet-strippers".

>I am not looking forward to a flame-war about the existence of life on
>other planets. I want to bring home that unthoughtful exploration of
>natural resources is what brought us the current environmental crisis.

I'm not trying to start a flame war either, but the current environmental
crisis can only be traced to exploration in a dim sense.  The real dangers
are pollution, garbage, gaseous emmissions, and non-degradable things.  All
are possible through the power of oil, all are stuck here because of the
gravity of the planet, and all are dangerous because of the number of people
contributing.  Exploration is usually hard on the environment only because
the explorer has to fight the environment to avoid becoming part of it (i.e
getting eaten).  IF there is life on other plaents, this will undoubtably
still hold.  But with space travel, we can put polluting industrial processes
off-planet, and dump garbage and non-degradable things (like plutonium) on
the resident star, where the primary fusion pile will dwarf any danger.

It might be illustrative, as a perspective-making idea to remember that
plants create oxygen (a poison to many life-forms), a gaseous emmission
that many of our distant ancestors used to make our way of life possible.

So, perhaps not all pollution is bad.

Tom
Acknowledge-To: <18084TM@MSU>

------------------------------

Date: 21 Jun 91 00:39:27 GMT
From: hub.ucsb.edu!ucsbuxa![e-mail]  (Charles Frank Radley)
Subject: Re: Mining El Dorado



While the ancient El Dorado never existed, we now have
a confirmed sighting ( by NASA 0 as of a couple of weeks ago,
of a large near-Earth asteroid composed of metal.

------------------------------

Date: 20 Jun 91 20:02:54 GMT
From: eagle!data.nas.nasa.gov!mustang!nntp-server.caltech.edu![e-mail]  (Steinn Sigurdsson)
Subject: Re: Mining El Dorado

In article <[e-mail]>, shafer@skipper (Mary Shafer) writes:
>
>Is your subject line prophetic?  The Spanish never found El Dorado.
>They looked and they died looking, but they never found it because
>it didn't exist.
>

    yah, but look at what they created in the process, why there
are huge air bases there now doing vital aerospace research!

------------------------------

End of SPACE Digest V13 #776
*******************